This afternoon saw the first substantive session of the
Centenary Conference of the American Society of International Law here in Washington. The first thing to note is that it was amazing that three of the four panelists on this were women –
Condoleeza Rice,
Sandra Day-O’Connor and
Rosalyn Higgins. The fourth was
Jose Alvarez, the incoming president of the society, whose work on international law is quite simply inspirational. I took substantive notes, although I unfortunately forgot my Dictaphone in the panic of leaving so I’ll be slow to attribute anything as an absolute quote… Likewise all questions are paraphrased.
The questioner/moderator was
Gwen Ifill who did an absolutely fabulous job in following up and in trying her best not to allow Rice to get away with prevarication or obfuscation (although not always with success). The other really amazing thing was the performance of Rosalyn Higgins who made some really remarkable pointed remarks to the Secretary of State and the fact that she responded to them. In other words there really was a far richer and fuller frank exchange of ideas than I would have expected and that was certainly refreshing.
Some of the answers are really amazing, particularly Condoleeza Rice’s response to questions about when American involvement becomes interference.
I’ll abbreviate the keys as follows: GI = Gwen Ifill; CR = Condoleeza Rice; SOC = Sandra Day O’Connor; RH – Rosalyn Higging; JA = Jose Alvarez
Question 1 [paraphrased] Should the Geneva Conventions apply to people detained in the War on Terror?CR said that the Geneva Conventions are a very important set of agreements and arrangements, but America is strongly of the view that this is a new kind of war in which the Conventions do not easily apply. To say that the Conventions apply to Al Qaeda terrorists would be to “stretch” the Conventions beyond their original conceptions. From the start President Bush was very clear that they would be applied to people in the Afghan army/Taliban but would not be applied to Al Qaeda terrorists as to do so would be to “subvert and in some ways pervert” the Conventions themselves. However she stressed that these people were to be treated consistent with the Conventions [NB] taking into account military necessity [NB]. She also stressed that we can not wait for a terrorist to commit a crime because then 3,000 people are dead; this is why this is different to municipal law enforcement and it is what creates genuine dilemmas for governments in fighting the War on Terror. When we are thinking about the Geneva Conventions we need to appreciate and think about these serious dilemmas.
GI Directed the same question to Sandra Day-O’Connor included asking her to comment on Judge Scalia’s statements in Switzerland [see
here] that to give terrorists a jury trial would be “crazy”
SOC immediately said that nobody is asking for jury trials for terrorists so there’s no need to address that part of the question.
RESPONSE Skeptical murmurings in the audience.
SOC then said that the Geneva Conventions do not strictly apply to terrorists being detained and that perhaps the time is ripe to revisit the Conventions and see whether any changes are needed.
RH firstly stressed that torture is always prohibited and therefore regardless of whether the Conventions apply these detainees may never be subjected to torture. Secondly she said that the applicability of the Geneva Conventions do not depend on subjects themselves complying with those Conventions so the nature of Al Qaeda is really a moot point. Thirdly she said there are difficulties with the Conventions and particularly with how they deal with non-State actors, that there are areas that need tightening up but that regardless human rights do not disappear in times of war either, so even if the Geneva Conventions don’t apply basic human rights norms do.
JA reflected on the confusion that sometimes appears to exist about American policies towards torture (what constitutes torture?) and command responsibility. He phrased his comment in the context of his nephew who is serving in Iraq and his desire for clear instructions and parameters for his nephew and his hope that he could return confident that he has acted nobly. He also reflected on the fact that it is not enough to condemn torture in the abstract, therefore introducing confusion is problematic. He also stressed that transporting people to places where they might be tortured is also a breach of the Torture Conventions.
CR responded to JA in particular. She felt that there should be no confusion about torture and that the USA is living up to its obligations under the Torture Convention and that detainees in Guantanamo have a right to have their status reviewed on a regular basis. She also stressed that the Military Commission were an attempt to breach one of these difficult dilemmas that governments face and was an attempt to balance the requirements of protecting important information and ensuring due process for detainees. She also said that what happened in Abu Ghraib was “horrible, disgusting and, for me, sickening”.
Question 2 [paraphrased] What are your responses to American attitudes on democratization as shown a poll today? [In short few people believe it’s important and that America can help other countries to become democracies]CR said that it’s very difficult to facilitate building democracies; democracy has to come from within, it can not come from outside. All over the world, she said, we are seeing the desire for democracy from people and there are no people on earth who are not ready for democracy.
GI [follow up] Referring to reports that President Bush wants a change in Iraqi Prime Minister – When does involvement become interference?CR did not confirm that those remarks had been made about the Iraqi prime ministership and said that she “wouldn’t believe everything you read in the newspapers”
GI Smart Retort; Favourable murmurings from crowd
CR America is committed to “active facilitation” in democracy building in Iraq. What is important is to help create the circumstances in which indigenous democratization can happen. The US believes the Iraqis “need to form a unity Government and need to do it now”.
She refused to either confirm or deny that the Ambassador had passed on a message from the President that the Prime Minister of Iraq should change
RH Democracy is “simply a human condition” but it is also “more than periodic votes”. There are great difficulties involved in situations where an individual member of the United Nations takes it upon themselves to remove so called terrorists from office. There is no entitlement for any member of the UN to dislodge the leader of another country.
CR Iraq had been deemed a threat to international peace and security in UN resolutions since 1991. Once you remove that threat the country that did so then has a responsibility to think about how to create conditions in the country.
Question 3: To what extent should foreign law be used as a precedent in the United States?CR stressed that she is not a lawyer so didn't know that much about it but the US does not exist in a vacuum but in general the US looks to its own laws.
SOC could not think of a single instance in which the US Supreme Court had cited foreign case law as binding law in interpreting the US Constitution. Objections to modest references to foreign law in the same way as journal articles may be referred to is difficult to understand – the Supreme Court is simply looking for ideas and examples.
JA stressed the difference between foreign law (the law of other countries) and international law (the law between states) and felt that the resistance to ‘foreign law’ comes mostly from a lack of understanding in Congress of the difference.
SOC Agreed with this confusion and stressed that international law is part of US law but foreign law is simply non-binding precedent; it is different.
Question 4: The President has said that the US has not given up on Russia. What does that mean in the context of Russia’s shaky relationship with the Rule of Law?CR QUOTE “It’s never wise to interpret the President’s speeches”
Personal reaction – ‘did she really just say that??’
CR (Im almost sure this is word for word what she said but not 100% so won't call it a quote. The uncertainty is not material though in terms of what she was saying about the dangers of too much executive power) If you concentrate too much power in the Executive…you’re setting up the conditions for tyranny
Reaction Crowd murmurs with disbelief; JA makes extremely entertaining disbelieving facial expressions. CR carries on unaffected.
CR Isolation won’t make Russia more democratic
JA remarked that he was delighted to hear the Secretary express commitment to the separation of powers and to not concentrating too much power in the Executive as many of the Society’s members were worried about that much closer to home
Reaction Applause
Question 5 [Submitted by Ralph Wilde, LSE] The UK has much greater obligations under international law than the USA. How do you resolve these issues diplomatically when undertaking projects like Afghanistan and Iraq? Death penalty used as an exampleCR There are rarely differences about the goal but sometimes about the tactics as the two countries have “common values”. However the disagreements at a tactical level are relatively rare.
SOC The question of the death penalty is left mostly to states in the USA. Some states have abolished it, others haven’t; this may change in time.
Question 6: [Submitted by an audience member – didn’t hear name, but from Bradford University] The Administration makes many analogies between now and 45-47. In 1945-47 there was easy acquiescence to American will which doesn’t seem to be present now. How far does the analogy stretch?CR did not feel there was so much willingness to bend to American will. She gave a very good answer about difficulties in the immediate aftermath of the second World War included large communist support in Italy, the division of Berlin etc… and said that she felt nobody then could be quite sure of what would eventually emerge but the fall of the Soviet Union and the reunification of Germany are the products of those policies. This is now the start of a very difficult time, just as it was then, and we can’t be sure what it will look like years from now.
RH These are not analogous situations for three reasons:
(a) There is now a profound divergence of views about the state of the world both within and between states;
(b) Today we have the European idea of being a counterweight to the United States and this resistance wasn’t there previously;
(c) The human rights framework was not present at that time and is present now
Question 7: [Submitted from member from James Madison University – didn’t hear name] The US helped to exert pressure to have Charles Taylor arrested. Will they now support the Special Court in Sierra Leone and to establishment of one for Liberia? CR didn’t really get the Liberia point so said she wouldn’t address it. She said that the USA was supported attempts to get the Sierra Leone up and running. She also remarked that sometimes the USA does have reservations about treaties because the country is “really very bluntly honest” when it comes to its capacity to comply with international treaties and will not sign up to treaties it cannot comply with. Even when the USA has reservations however they still try to find ways to co-operate with the system because “we’ve always stood on the side of bringing perpetrators of injustice to justice”
RH said that she thought it was important to avoid creating the impression that states should be accountable but not opening oneself to those laws.
Reaction Hugely supportive applause
RH In this way she felt that the culture was profoundly different.
CR said that was exactly the point – the cultures were different and “with respect we broke from Europe”
Response A fair amount of patriotic applause
CR stressed that they are accountable in a different way – through the separation of powers and an exceptionally free media for example. She stressed that the differences and the American system must be respected.
JA felt that it was ok for America not to ratify the International Criminal Court but hoped that some day it would realize that it is in America’s interest to ratify it. He also stressed that he felt we should respect other countries’ decisions to ratify and not engage in bilateral agreements that Americans in other countries should not be accountable for their actions.